Curse

Desert Rose · Nov 27, 2009, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Sorry, but when over 60% of their spells are just straight damage, not to mention the freaking instruction booklet and the official website classify Eles as "damage dealers" then I'm pretty sure that's their intended role.

The description reads "Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession", that's a spiker, not a damage dealer; futhermore, they can enhance allies and hamper thier enemies. All in all the official description classify Eles more as a supporter than a damage dealer.
But don't let us argue about semantics.

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But let's assume that they are a support class, they're STILL screwed, cuz eles don't have that many useful support skill to begin with.

Eles have numerous powerful support skills, that's not the problem; due to boobyish enemies in PvE it's more benefitcal to bring an additional damage dealer than a supporter.

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And what about all of their plain damage skills, are you suggesting those skills are put there just for fun?

Spiking and to fulfil a cliche. In most other games mages are damage dealers, so most players expect the "mages" in GW are also damage dealers.

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(Eles) need a complete redesign (...)

Nope, PvE needs to be redesigned; right now it only requires two roles: Damage Dealers and Healers/Protters. It's impossible to balance 10 professions with only two possible roles.

And a DoA HM fullrun in 44 minutes with three eles and one mesmer as damage dealers doesn't really confirm that eles are bad at it.

AtomicMew · Nov 27, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

The description reads "Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession", that's a spiker, not a damage dealer; futhermore, they can enhance allies and hamper thier enemies. All in all the official description classify Eles more as a supporter than a damage dealer.But don't let us argue about semantics.

Agreed. So why bring it up?

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Eles have numerous powerful support skills, that's not the problem; due to boobyish enemies in PvE it's more benefitcal to bring an additional damage dealer than a supporter.

Um, no. Ele's don't have ANY powerful support skills, except for maybe wards, which are too situational, and 99% of the time not even worth it.

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Nope, PvE needs to be redesigned; right now it only requires two roles: Damage Dealers and Healers/Protters. It's impossible to balance 10 professions with only two possible roles.

Um, no... do you even play PvE? You have this wacky idea of how PvE works. Support IS useful, however you want to define support. It's just that ele support is simply subpar to everything else. E.g., tease heroes, BHA, SY!, aegis (similar to WaM), minions

The REAL problem is that eles are simply weak because all their skills are weak, damage-wise and support-wise. It has nothing to do with PvE not needing support or PvE needing to be redesigned or whatever BS you can come up with.

UnChosen · Nov 27, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

The description reads "Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession", that's a spiker, not a damage dealer; futhermore, they can enhance allies and hamper thier enemies. All in all the official description classify Eles more as a supporter than a damage dealer.
But don't let us argue about semantics.

Eles have numerous powerful support skills, that's not the problem; due to boobyish enemies in PvE it's more benefitcal to bring an additional damage dealer than a supporter.

Spiking and to fulfil a cliche. In most other games mages are damage dealers, so most players expect the "mages" in GW are also damage dealers.

Nope, PvE needs to be redesigned; right now it only requires two roles: Damage Dealers and Healers/Protters. It's impossible to balance 10 professions with only two possible roles.

And a DoA HM fullrun in 44 minutes with three eles and one mesmer as damage dealers doesn't really confirm that eles are bad at it.

They also can't "Spike" well, when all their damage get cut in more than half by the armor.

Trying to argue that Anet should redesign the entire game so that one class can "support" better is entirely unfeasible. Not when Anet can simply buff the profession so that they're actually damage dealer, or just remove the super armor from HM and be done with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

3 PvE skills will provide you with a very decent damage output. Now combine that with the ability to spam wards, or slowdowns, or blind or Blurred, ... and you are dealing with a nice contribution to the party.

Oh, and I am PRETTY sure the mesmers have it worse.

Not decent enough to warrant bringing them to any sort of end game areas, that's for sure. I can easily slap generic PvE skills on other char to take advantage of soul reaping (infinite energy) or fast casting (fast kill).

Chthon · Nov 27, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

..you think you're so good running ER builds...

I've seen Varda run ER. He's the best I've seen at it, and quite possibly the best there is. Calling Varda bad at ER is like calling Racthoh bad at imbagons or calling Avarre bad at mesmers. You really should know who you're talking about before you start spouting ad noobinem garbage because you lack the reasoning ability to back up your ideas without resorting to personal attacks. It just makes you look like a fool.

Moreover, you've got Varda pegged totally wrong. His manifest purpose is 180 degrees different from what you seem to think it is. Look into the future for a bit: ER is already the king of UW balanced clears. Once the SF nerf comes through and puts an end to mobway/failway, ER is going to grow astronomically in popularity. Soon after that, the tidal wave of e-peen envy will begin to grow: "People who run ER complete UW, but I suck too much to run ER. NERF THE OTHER PLAYERS!" A-net, as usual, will be asleep a the wheel until the tidal wave of whining hits them, and will respond with a kneejerk sledgehammer nerf that totally kills ER, and any use for eles in serious PvE along with it. (See the CoP nerf for a perfect example of this sort of chain of events.) It is manifestly obvious to me that Varda is pushing for a small nerf now to prevent a kneejerk sledgehammer nerf later.

Now, in my opinion, short of totally redesigning PvE, leaving ER totally alone is the best course of action. But, if there's going to be a nerf, a small nerf is far better than a sledgehammer nerf. And, judging from a-net's past behavior, it's not at all unreasonable to fear that a nerf is inevitable once serious whining starts.

upier · Nov 27, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Not decent enough to warrant bringing them to any sort of end game areas, that's for sure. I can easily slap generic PvE skills on other char to take advantage of soul reaping (infinite energy) or fast casting (fast kill).

We have 10 classes and 8 party slots.
Which means the only way to include the excluded guys is for them to take a party slot that is currently being taken by someone else.
And that means someone else will be left out.

We have a PvE where everyone can contribute nicely due to the the insanity that are PvE skills. Even in high-end areas.
They might not be the single best option - but outside of farming, that won't really matter.

UnChosen · Nov 28, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

We have 10 classes and 8 party slots.
Which means the only way to include the excluded guys is for them to take a party slot that is currently being taken by someone else.
And that means someone else will be left out.

We have a PvE where everyone can contribute nicely due to the the insanity that are PvE skills. Even in high-end areas.
They might not be the single best option - but outside of farming, that won't really matter.

But with ER, there is finally a definite reason to choose an Ele over other chars, which leads to more diversity = good. I rather Anet spend their effort in making end game area more accessible to pugs, balanced the reward in those area (No freaking 2 onyx for 2 hour dungeon), buff mesmer and other.

upier · Nov 28, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

But with ER, there is finally a definite reason to choose an Ele over other chars, which leads to more diversity = good. I rather Anet spend their effort in making end game area more accessible to pugs, balanced the reward in those area (No freaking 2 onyx for 2 hour dungeon), buff mesmer and other.

(Based on your own argument) How can there be diversity when everything else is

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Not decent enough to warrant bringing them to any sort of end game areas

compared to an ER ele?

KiDCuDi · Nov 28, 2009, 01:50 AM // 01:50

How about we just nerf everything that works well

UnChosen · Nov 28, 2009, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

(Based on your own argument) How can there be diversity when everything else is

compared to an ER ele?

Because the only thing ER eles can really do well is to spam heal/prot. At the most it replaces the HB monk, but can never replace monk entirely because monk have UA and more slot to fit in cleaning spells. ER eles are also mob magnet because they're always at 50% health, they always need to run to absolute safety first before they can start spamming.

I say its a pretty good trade off....uber healing in exchange for having dmg gimped in HM unless you force yourself to stack the few good PvE skills. I thought being forced to have a generic build is supposed to be a bad thing, isn't that the entire argument for nerfing Ursan? The day when I see Meteor Shower hit for 100+ dmg prophecies style is when ER should be brought into question.

Jeydra · Nov 28, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Because the only thing ER eles can really do well is to spam heal/prot. At the most it replaces the HB monk, but can never replace monk entirely because monk have UA and more slot to fit in cleaning spells. ER eles are also mob magnet because they're always at 50% health, they always need to run to absolute safety first before they can start spamming.

I say its a pretty good trade off....uber healing in exchange for having dmg gimped in HM unless you force yourself to stack the few good PvE skills. I thought being forced to have a generic build is supposed to be a bad thing, isn't that the entire argument for nerfing Ursan? The day when I see Meteor Shower hit for 100+ dmg prophecies style is when ER should be brought into question.

No they don't, for two reasons. One, they'll usually have Prot Spirit and possibly Spirit Bond on themselves. Two, ER restores health with every cast as well as energy, and a lot of it. If they aren't Infusing then the extra health goes to waste. By tanking, they take damage that would otherwise have gone to other players who don't have such built-in healing. Finally, ER Eles will not usually be at 50% health. They'll be at 50% after one Infuse, but most of the time immediately after an Infuse the Elementalist will cast Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond / Shield Guardian / GDW / whatever, which quickly brings his health back up to ~80% with Life Attunement support. All in all as an ER Ele I'd happily stand my ground against most kinds of damage, although not all (e.g. Blackout destroys ER).

I think it's fair to say ER should not be nerfed, but you should at least be aware of what ER can achieve before you critique it ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Oh, and I am PRETTY sure the mesmers have it worse.

More like they win the "hey, we both suck, let's see who sucks worse" competition.

reaper with no name · Nov 28, 2009, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Because the only thing ER eles can really do well is to spam heal/prot. At the most it replaces the HB monk, but can never replace monk entirely because monk have UA and more slot to fit in cleaning spells. ER eles are also mob magnet because they're always at 50% health, they always need to run to absolute safety first before they can start spamming.

I say its a pretty good trade off....uber healing in exchange for having dmg gimped in HM unless you force yourself to stack the few good PvE skills. I thought being forced to have a generic build is supposed to be a bad thing, isn't that the entire argument for nerfing Ursan? The day when I see Meteor Shower hit for 100+ dmg prophecies style is when ER should be brought into question.

Actually, they're good at spamming any spells you give them that have a short recharge. Try Blood Ritual or Mirage Cloak+SignetofPiousLight

UnChosen · Nov 28, 2009, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No they don't, for two reasons. One, they'll usually have Prot Spirit and possibly Spirit Bond on themselves. Two, ER restores health with every cast as well as energy, and a lot of it. If they aren't Infusing then the extra health goes to waste. By tanking, they take damage that would otherwise have gone to other players who don't have such built-in healing. Finally, ER Eles will not usually be at 50% health. They'll be at 50% after one Infuse, but most of the time immediately after an Infuse the Elementalist will cast Prot Spirit / Spirit Bond / Shield Guardian / GDW / whatever, which quickly brings his health back up to ~80% with Life Attunement support. All in all as an ER Ele I'd happily stand my ground against most kinds of damage, although not all (e.g. Blackout destroys ER).

I think it's fair to say ER should not be nerfed, but you should at least be aware of what ER can achieve before you critique it ...

More like they win the "hey, we both suck, let's see who sucks worse" competition.

Ya I guess I was wrong there...I was using ER spam in an area with necros and mesmer (there were no monks! yet another reason why more healer alternatives are good) and got triple shattered + followed by a spike. I still stand with ER should remain to compensate for having 60% of their skills being useless in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Actually, they're good at spamming any spells you give them that have a short recharge. Try Blood Ritual or Mirage Cloak+SignetofPiousLight

I rather have necro spam BIP and Monk spamming their own heal spells using selfless/divine spirit. Necros spells are generally better spammed by themselves thanks to soul reaping. Good mesmer spells generally don't have low enough recharge to spam. Ele's better spells have ridiculous cool down (for 30 dmg, yay?), and no spamming flare is NOT good. Dervish have their own arcane zeal that synergizes better when spamming their own skills. Rit don't have enough enchantments. Infuse health and prot is just the few instance where attribute points and primary attribute does not matter as muchl, hence the synergy with ER.

Desert Rose · Nov 28, 2009, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Trying to argue that Anet should redesign the entire game so that one class can "support" better is entirely unfeasible. Not when Anet can simply buff the profession so that they're actually damage dealer, or just remove the super armor from HM and be done with it.

Cause there's only one profession which original role isn't very useful in PvE, right? Ranger and mesmer suffer the same problem.
By buffing the damage of eles you simply shift the problem to another profession which damage skills are now bad compared to other options.
Monster armor is based on monster level, not on difficulty level.

UnChosen · Nov 28, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Cause there's only one profession which original role isn't very useful in PvE, right? Ranger and mesmer suffer the same problem.
By buffing the damage of eles you simply shift the problem to another profession which damage skills are now bad compared to other options.
Monster armor is based on monster level, not on difficulty level.

Then they should buff ranger and mesmer as well, assuming Anet doesn't get it right the first time and overcompensated for the eles. And they should keep on doing it until all of these class is somehow getting "too overpowered" then start nerfing a bit. Far better than this "race to the bottom" nerfing of every class while all pugs get screwed over.

AlsPals · Nov 29, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As I have said:
Oh, and I am PRETTY sure the mesmers have it worse.

HEY! I got to stop you right there! The joys of a weaker VOR and having skills nerfed due to other classes abuse is not enough to dissuade me and other hardcore mesmers from trying to powerleak a HM monster's Glimmer of Light. Oops...

HigherMinion · Nov 29, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Ether Renewal is completely overpowered; but only to players who really spend time using it, testing, every skill on the bar seems to count. But you can't pickup an ER bar and start playing it like a monk, as I've found countless times making PUGs run the bar.

If this ever does become Meta, maybe players will get better in general, become more aware. ER has so many downsides and problems already it's immense.

. Diversion on Infuse or ER can screw your team badly.
. Deep Enchant removal, such as Rend; can rape you if you don't know how to look at your compass.
. Interrupts, and other types of shutdowns, enchant hate (well of Profane)

If you're aware of all these things, look out for them and you will do better than a monk. If you just want to see lots of red-bars go up, you're not going to play this well.

This is why ER will not become Meta. Silly PUGs will be silly PUGs.

ElnoreVarda · Nov 29, 2009, 06:16 PM // 18:16

And a monk doesnt have to watch out for above because?

SmokingHotImolation · Nov 29, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

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Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

And a monk doesnt have to watch out for above because?

Bingo. Also i think the only place i've ever been diverted was in gloom by darknesses, and even then you'd be pretty retarded using infuse while diverted.

HigherMinion · Nov 30, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

And a monk doesnt have to watch out for above because?

because a monk won't be COMPLETELY shut down from losing one-two spammable spells. If you're bonding and you lose infuse, you will most likely lose your bonds and big heal. Bye bye party.

A monk that's spamming, say, heal party- will have other smaller heals to fall back on, until HP is recharged.

Enchants can be stripped, no problem, on a monk. They can still heal and function without.

Malician · Nov 30, 2009, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

because a monk won't be COMPLETELY shut down from losing one-two spammable spells. If you're bonding and you lose infuse, you will most likely lose your bonds and big heal. Bye bye party.

A monk that's spamming, say, heal party- will have other smaller heals to fall back on, until HP is recharged.

Enchants can be stripped, no problem, on a monk. They can still heal and function without.

You can keep bonds up with shorter recharge spells as long as you have ether. Without ether, you still have an infuse or two and energy to prot with. Any party or small heals on you will let you infuse again. I agree that it can be difficult to work around.. but it's doable.